Euro Chat with Joe Ross

Chat log from: Thursday, February 22, 2007
Mikhail81 joined.
joeross joined.
joeross Shall we dance, da da da?
Mikhail81 Why not? ;)
joeross We may be the only ones on the dance floor :)
Mikhail81 sure feels like dancing w/ bullets, just entered into crude by mistake, slipped up and put in a LMT order instead of a stop order...
Mikhail81 so far it's going my way
Mikhail81 :)
joeross If you slipped up, it's because oil is slippery
Mikhail81 :)
joeross How much is a tick in that mini oil?
murra joined.
Mikhail81 You know what is means though, right?! I wanted to get stopped into the trade, but instead go a better price b/c I put in a LMT order
Mikhail81 $12.5
murra Hello Joe and everyone how are you?
joeross Hi Murra
joeross $12.50??? that's more than the open outcry full contract
Mikhail81 Hi Murra
Mikhail81 really?
joeross Regular open outcry is $10/tick
Mikhail81 this is the mini oil
Mikhail81 QM
joeross Why would they make it $12.50? that doesn't make sense.
joeross The full contract is 1,000 bbls of oil
joeross how big is the mini?
Mikhail81 Joe, I am looking it up right now
Mikhail81 maybe wrong
ian joined.
ian hi everyone
joeross


 I was wrong. Looked it up, too. NYMEX says $12.50 minimum tick fluctuation
Mikhail81 http://www.nymex.com/QM_spec.aspx
ian


 Hi Joe...Have two questions to start...first would you say NYmex oil is tradeable...the volatility is wild...
joeross ian: you may have to use a tick chart with it, to calm things down.
joeross Might be called "equitick" on your software
murra



 in order i read day trading trading by the book, tnt IV, and trading is business which is better the next? what do you suggest to me i have thought trading the Ross hook is there italian version? is it has been revised?
Mikhail81



 I am confused ::wacko the contract spec. page says it's NYMEX miniNY, but it's traded on CME's globex platform, but the data feed is from NY not CME. any idea Joe?.
joeross



 Trading the Ross Hook is not yet in Italian, Murra. Francesco, will be releasing Trading is a Business this month I think, and it is in Italian. Check with him, murra. Just go to our Italian website for his contact information
ian




 a more general question: Joe you always say trade what you see not what you think, to my mind that inevitably leaves one feeling insecure especially when one thinks the market will go one way while in fact he sees it seems to be going another way. Yet you also say we should feel comfortable when trading. How does one reconcile the two?
RicketyTin joined.
joeross

 Mikhail: NYMEX trades the electronic markets using the CME. It was either that or lose it all to International Commodity Exchange
murra i have bought it last week and i am reading
Mikhail81 what a Scam, isn't the data included into CME if they are using CME's platform
Mikhail81 Joe: have you had any experience w/ Reuters' or Bloomberg's data feeds?
joeross Mikhail: Because the data belongs to NYMEX
Mikhail81

 just got out of my long oil trade, and what does it do, I get out and it takes off, :) lol
joeross

 Mikhail: The Hang Seng Index is traded on a computer in France, coz the French had a platform and Hang Seng needed it.
murra do you suggest me to read now or is it better to wait for the new version?
ian joe may i ask a general question
Mikhail81 Murra, I just got my copy of the RH text, it's fine!...
Mikhail81 no it's better than fine, it's AMAZING! :)
joeross murra: read it now. It is up to date by Francesco
Mikhail81 but I already owned the TNT III for a while and it's basically the same text
joeross ian: yes ask
joeross Mikhail: TNT II is now different from the new Trading is a Business
ian



 i think you may have missed it i asked it above ...reconciling the fact that we trade what we see not what we think even though what we think may be different and thus lead to uncomfortableness about a trade...yet we also say we should be comfortable when we trade
Mikhail81 Joe: my comment was in reference to the Ross Hook
Mikhail81 but yes TNT II is not as good as Trading is a business...
Mikhail81 Joe, I OWN everyone of your books!
Mikhail81 or rather TNT II does not have as much stuff as Trading is a Business
joeross Ian: I did not see your question above, but now I see it.
joeross ian: your comfort is the most important of the two.
joeross Do not trade if you are not comfortable
Mikhail81 Ian: good question/comment, for me personally comfort has more too do with the amount of risk I am taking, where is "trade what you see, not what you think" is about being objective about price action...
Mikhail81 my $0.02
Mikhail81 :)
joeross TNT III is very generic, essentially the same as TTRH. Very little needs to be changed there
ian thanks
SusanL joined.
Mikhail81 Joe: I know and you did tell me that I don't need to get the RH, but I admit, I am a junkie for your work :)
joeross I'm glad you are addicted, Mikhail. We have a lot of people to feed around here :)
Mikhail81 lol
Mikhail81 hey I made a lot of $$$ and your work has done the same for me! ;)
Mikhail81 I think I have already spend around $8k on TE/Ross stuff
Mikhail81 and I have not done private tutoring yet!
joeross I had an interesting experience in Brazil.
Mikhail81 Joe: were you there for the infamous "carnival"? ;)
joeross


 No, not the carnival. I met a man who had purchased one of the first "Trading by the Book"
joeross


 He said when he saw it he was sure he had been ripped off. but he decided to read it anyway.
Mikhail81 lol
joeross


 That first edition was really crude, I had to cut and paste with a scissors and copy the charts into the text on a copier.
RicketyTin



 Joe, I just bought and read Trading Optures and Futions and Trading Seasonals and Spreads - that's got to be one months feed! Excellent books, both!
joeross but he said when he read it, he would have gladly given $60,000 for it.
ian




 joe another question: You say we should take the signal from the larger time frame and the entry from the lessor time frame. What do you mean by entry from lesser time frame...if you signal is in the weekly at say 1.31 on eur fx then you enter at that px...why do you need a lessor time frame/
Mikhail81



 I could NOT believe one of the reviews of the RH on amazon.com, some clown said that you'd be just as well off going to a bar and asking a bartender how to trade...
joeross Thanks Tin
joeross ian: One way of trading is to use the concept of micro management.
joeross To do that with a weekly chart, you go to the daily chart, which is a lesser time frame. So the lessor time frame allows you to micro manage
ian




 while we are on the subject of books ...i just bought spreads and seasonals from Alan (south Africa) it arrived in a week ...what a pleasure...and I did not have to pay customs duty or shipping fees...awesome
Mikhail81



 yeah, I was completely overwhelmed by "optures and futions", while reading it I was thinking to myself this guys is "insane" I mean he really is the COMPLETE trader who knows how to trade in any market environment, bear, bull, sideways....
ian

 okay so the trade is entered using the weekly i.e at the weekly price...but then managed i.e stop loss or exit using the daily/
joeross As long as you live in South Africa, it is best to buy from Alan
joeross ian: That's right, drop down to the daily for management. It is just a way of trading. A trading style.
murra




 the biggest time frame is for look the major trend and the smaller time frame is for look retracment and go whit the big trend when it being again . is it right ioe?
joeross Murra: Yes that is right. You really have the idea right.
ian so the smaller time frame is to get a jump on the bigger time frame?
RicketyTin Joe, I trade seasonals like coffee, coffee, meats, would I be mad not to sign up with Moore Research?
joeross



 Tin: Outright seasonals on Moore's have not been so spectacular in recent years. I use their seasonal spreads, but not the seasonal outrights
RicketyTin Thanks Joe
joeross


 ian: using the smaller time frame to get the jump is what micro managing is all about
murra


 before i read your book i didn't understand anything of this question, now everything is more clear for me, thank you Joe. I have another question
joeross ask, murra
Mikhail81

 Joe: I think you missed my question, so here it is again: have you had any experience w/ Bloomber's or Reurters data feeds?
joeross


 Mikhail: Yes some experience. Both are very expensive compared with others. But I can't say for sure that is still true.
Mikhail81 Joe: what about the quality?
ian



 re micro managing joe....doesn't that make one susceptible to being whipsawed by the smaller time frame's movements which kind of takes away from the smoothing advantage the bigger time frame gives
joeross Mikhail: The quality didn't seem any better when I used them.
Mikhail81



 yes you are right, Bloomberg is super expensive, but my friend who is at a hedge fund, says that's what they use, Bloomberg i.e., so I suppose it's got to be top of the line...
murra



 i have thought that this book i have told before are propedeutical for understanding every market now i'd like before tutoring to learn future what do you suggest me to red for being ?(i don't know if i have write well)
joeross



 ian: You are right. Everything comes with a price. You gain the advantage of getting the jump, but you lose the smoothness and lack of noise. It is a trading decision a trader has to make, There's always a trade off of some kind.
Mikhail81

 Ian, there is also an issue of momentum and thrust, there is just more of it when the b/o occurs on a larger timeframe...
joeross murra: which books have you read?
Mikhail81 but once the thrust/momentum secedes no reason to stick around, IMO
Mikhail81 and that's where the smaller/shorter time frame comes in
Mikhail81 you can react faster
Mikhail81 to the underlying conditions
joeross Ian: Mikhail has it right
Mikhail81 of course this is just my personal interpretation of Joe's teachings...
Mikhail81 :)
murra


 i red tnt IV trick... trading by the book english version day trading in italian and now trading is business in italian
ian makes a lot of sense
joeross


 murra if you don't know anything about futures, we have a beginner's course on our website
Mikhail81


 Joe: actually I have noticed somewhat of a pattern in gold, will have to test some more to make sure it's not my imagination playing tricks :)
Mikhail81


 a lot of times when the b/o of a weekly bar occurs, there is massive and I mean massive volume and a decent price explosion...
joeross gold is a tough market to trade
Mikhail81 as if someone purposefully is pushing the market to b/o the extreme of the weekly bar
joeross


 You can check out another pattern in gold. I haven't used it in awhile, but inside bars usually give great scalp trades on the daily chart
Mikhail81 YES YES
Mikhail81 on a daily!
Mikhail81 I noticed that too
Mikhail81 :)
Mikhail81 Joe: it really is amazing how simple a lot of this stuff is!
Mikhail81 I think 90% of aspiring traders have no clue...
joeross


 And here's a tip for Rickety Tin: take a look at daily chart inside bars in coffee. I have made lots of money from those
Mikhail81 but hey, someone has to pay my bills ;)
joeross Mikhail: 90% have never been exposed to the truth
ian joe how do you determine a profit target from the breakout of an inside bar
RicketyTin thanks, I will look, Joe.
joeross I had a guy here this week that was stuffed full of all the wrong info. I had to straighten out his head
Mikhail81 I remember the president of a prop shop where I used daytrade stocks telling me, that like 97% of daytraders wash out within 6 months...
murra



 is very difficult for me because i don't speak good in english (you can see this when i come for the chat the days after i must to translate for understanding well) sorry i am making a lesson for learning well the language is very important for me in italian there is not very good book and other for learning)
joeross Tin: I simply traded them looking for 100 ticks ($375) and then out..
joeross If they popped out on one side and then reversed, I went for the other side.
joeross It works as long as you are not greedy
RicketyTin Joe, I think a lot of trading to me now looks like take about that per contract, I will check coffee too for that, thanks.
joeross You are doing fine murra. The only word I had trouble with was one that was a new invention. Propedeutical :)
ian i have reread about your suggestion to reverse an initial position....its so hard to do...
joeross ian: it takes some cojones, if you know what I mean ;)
joeross I'm not sure I spelled that right :(
ian know what you mean anyway joe...guess one just has to go for it ...
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joeross ian: you have to find out which markets and time frames it works in.
joeross reversing is very effective in some markets and not at all effective in others
Mikhail81 as far as reversing, it's a great way to learn how to be completely objective about price action....
joeross Hi catbounce
Mikhail81 but yeah, cajones is nice :)
catbounce Hi Joe, I'm new here. Could I ask why you use bar charts over candlestick charts, do you find candlestick charts too subjective?
ian


 joe you write a lot about planning trades etc, when trading 5 min charts etc...do you plan every trade you enter...the logic/pattern etc...surely its too much to do for every trade on such a small time frame/
Mikhail81 we as traders, must have absolutely no bias!
joeross


 cat: I use bar charts because that's what I'm used to using. Lately, using Ninja Trader I've been using the candlesticks. Mainly coz I'm too lazy to change from the default, which is candlesticks..
Mikhail81 Joe: do you like Sushi? ;)
catbounce Okay, appreciate your answer Joe, thanks.
ian



 Mikhail hear you...good way to force oneself to be objective...i have seen that reversing a position would have made money most time...but when it doesn't work ...its like you get hit twice and you are thinking hey you were right in the first place
joeross Ian: the plan exists outside of the five minute time frame. I already know how I will behave when various things take place
Mikhail81 Ian: mate there is no perfection in this business!
Mikhail81 just as long as your bottom line is increasing!
joeross Mikhail: I like Sashimi better
Mikhail81 well, if you are ever in D.C. area I will take you to the most amazing Sushi place. The have incredible Sashimi!!!!
ian so you select a method of how you will trade and then just trade what you see/
joeross I may be there between planes in May
murra ioe sorry. "Propaedeutical" means "preparatory instruction" sorry for my english ::wub
joeross ian: that's right
catbounce BTW Joe, I'm enjoying reading your Law of Charts, very interesting.
joeross murra: I think you invented a great new word. I will try to use it some day. ;)
joeross Thanks, cat
RicketyTin I am very grateful for "trade what you see, not what you think" - I remind myself every day, thanks.
ian




 all the variables profit targets etc have been set out before and then each that trade is taken based on the method will be managed according to that plan...i guess that can be done for daily or even weekly charts...have one grand plan with one set method with set profit targets stop management and then apply it or is that too general/
catbounce Anyone from the UK here?
joeross ian: a bit too general
Mikhail81 Tin: I used to have a huge sign above my screens, "trade what you see, not what you think".... it helped to program me properly. :)
joeross ian: You can develop a trading style the way you described, but a method needs to be more specific
Mikhail81 Catbounce, I used to live in UK!
ian



 rickey tin/joe trade what you see not what you think is a great statement...but also a fearsome one...almost every time i fail it is because of transgressing that statement guess i haven't repeated it to myself enough!
catbounce Where are you now Mik?
Mikhail81 D.C.
RicketyTin Yes, Mikhail, worth a million.
ian joe what do you mean more specific?
joeross I took some old CDs and made labels for them. On one side they say "GET A FREE TRADE" on the other side they say "GET PAID TO TRADE"
Mikhail81 I used to live 20 min. south of London, Thorpe-Surey
catbounce I'm in Somerset..
joeross ian: a method has to be geared to a particular market and time frame
Mikhail81


 but I think also one of the important lesson I learned from Joe, is that we have to avoid big hits, I know I can make money, but it's a lot harder to get back up after taking a big hit...
joeross Well guys, I have to go have my nap
joeross I didn't get much sleep last night
joeross so let's make a date for next week.
Mikhail81

 Joe: thanks again for your time, it really is great to have you around for these chats! :)
ian thanks joe and everyone else see you have a great day joe!
catbounce It's my first time here and it's been interesting - thanks everyone.
RicketyTin G'night Joe, thanks next week it is.
murra by ioe for the next, itis very good to meet you, thank you.
joeross

bye everyone, but before I go I looked up "propaedeutical"

Noun 1. propaedeutic - a course that provides and introduction to an art or science (or to more advanced study generally)
imparted in a series of lessons or class meetings; "he took a course in basket weaving"; "flirting is not unknown in college classes"
Adj. 1. propaedeutic - preceding and preparing for something; "preparatory steps"
- existing or coming before

END OF CHAT

Next Chat with Joe Ross:
Thursday, March 1, 2007
Time: 8:00 - 9:00 P.M., European Central Time (Berlin, Paris, Rome)

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